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Domain Question for composite functions

 
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sno_more
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PostPosted: Fri, 13 May 2005 21:55:02 UTC    Post subject: Domain Question for composite functions Reply with quote

Let me set this up, ask my question, then explain why I am confused or confirm my suspicion.

Let g(x)= (4-x)^1/2 i.e., g(x) equals the square root of (4 minus x). The domain of g(x) is all x less than or equal to four.

Let f(x)= 1/x (i.e., the reciprocity function). The domain of f(x) is all x, other than 0.

It would seem to me that the domain of the composite, f(g(x)), would exclude x=4, but not exclude x=0. I get to this result because if g(4)=0, that feeds f(x) as f(0) or 1 divided by zero, which is undefined. So, in the composite, x=4 results in division by zero. On the other hand, 0 would be in the domain of the composite, because for the composite, if x=0, then g(0)=2, so that 1/g(0)= 1/2, which is a perfectly permissible and pedestrian outcome. Am I right so far?

This conclusion works, assuming the domain of g(x) can properly be defined so that it results in no values in the range of g(x) such that, when the values of the range of g(x) are defined as the domain of f(x), f(x) operates to, for example, divide by zero. A value that, in the domain of g(x), corresponds to a range value for g(x) which is in the domain of f(x) is in the domain of the composite, even though it is outside the domain values of f(x).

I think this is important to the proof that the composite of continuous functions is itself continuous (perhaps not to others, but to me). But I recall from somewhere that one must exclude from the domain of a composite function any value which is excluded from the domain of any of the functions of which it is composed. But perhaps I am misremembering that, and that is only true as an element of the relationship between reciprocal functions?
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Kwyjibo
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PostPosted: Fri, 13 May 2005 22:33:59 UTC    Post subject: Reply with quote

By definition the domain of f(g(x)) is the set of all values of x for which g(x) is defined and f(g(x)) is defined.

-Kwyjibo
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sno_more
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PostPosted: Fri, 20 May 2005 02:54:14 UTC    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks.

The polite way to describe your response is blunt. Another observation might be that to use a definition as the answer assumes the conclusion.

Can you get there without the resort to definition? I haven't been able to.
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Mr Fantastic
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PostPosted: Fri, 20 May 2005 03:02:05 UTC    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nutshell: The range of g has to be a subset of the domain of f in order that f[g(x)] is defined.
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Kwyjibo
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PostPosted: Fri, 20 May 2005 14:39:35 UTC    Post subject: Reply with quote

sno_more wrote:
Can you get there without the resort to definition? I haven't been able to.


Well think about it this way. Before I was under the impression that you were just confused as

to what the definition was. The composition of two functions gives you another function, i.e. f(g(x))=h(x).

The domain of h(x), since we assume it is a real-valued function, is the set of all x such that h(x)

is defined and a real number at that x-value. In order for h(x) to be defined and real at an x-value,

f(g(x)) must be defined and and real at this point, i.e. the domain of h(x) is the same as f(g(x)),

which should be obvious. It follows that since with a composite function you are inserting the

value for the independent variable in g(x), and then using that value in place of the independent

variable for f(x), that g(x) must be defined in order to be used as that variable. And since h(x)

must be defined for all x in it's domain, f(g(x)) must be also, so if g(x) results in a value that is

excluded in the domain of f(x) for some x, then this value is not in the domain of f(g(x)).

All this basically comes down to what Mr. Fantastic told you and what I said before.

Hope this helps! Good luck!

-Kwyjibo
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sno_more
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PostPosted: Mon, 23 May 2005 05:02:25 UTC    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks. To both of you. For both the long and the short versions of the answer, both very helpful. In a colloquial nutshell, I shouldn't assume the negative pregnant.

Now, for another question, if I may trouble you. Is it a characteristic of a cusp that the right and left hand limits of the first derivative at the point of the cusp approach positive and negative infinity, respectively (which being which depending on whether the cusp is a local maximum or minimum of the function)? If so, why? This blew out of nowhere on me, as the explanation in the back of a book for the difference between a cusp and a corner of a continuous piecewise defined function. I like it, but I don't understand it.
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PostPosted: Mon, 23 May 2005 06:11:25 UTC    Post subject: Reply with quote

sno_more wrote:
Thanks. To both of you. For both the long and the short versions of the answer, both very helpful. In a colloquial nutshell, I shouldn't assume the negative pregnant. Que'est?? You seem to be the rambling sort, sport, and expect answers to be the same. I'm the terse sort. So be happy with what you going to get.

Now, for another question, if I may trouble you. Is it a characteristic of a cusp that the right and left hand limits of the first derivative at the point of the cusp approach positive and negative infinity, respectively (which being which depending on whether the cusp is a local maximum or minimum of the function)? No. Consider the astroid => as an archetypical counter-example. It has cusps at (-a, 0), (a, 0), (0, a) and (0, -a). At the first two points, dy/dx --> [insert your thinking here].

If so, why? This blew out of nowhere on me, as the explanation in the back of a book for the difference between a cusp and a corner of a continuous piecewise defined function. I like it, but I don't understand it.

If there is a cusp at the point (x1, y1), then as (x, y) --> (x1, y1) the derivative approaches an indeterminant form. The limiting value of the derivative does NOT depend on how (x, y) --> (x1, y1).

By a 'corner', I assume you're referring to a 'salient point' (not to be confused with the salient point I made above, sport). If there's a salient point at (x1, y1), then the limiting value of the derivative DOES depend on how (x, y) --> (x1, y1). Which means that the derivative does not exist at (x1, y1). The archetypical example is the point (0, 0) on f(x) = |x|.
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PostPosted: Mon, 23 May 2005 07:47:37 UTC    Post subject: Reply with quote

sno_more wrote:

Now, for another question, if I may trouble you. Is it a characteristic of a cusp that the right and left hand limits of the first derivative at the point of the cusp approach positive and negative infinity, respectively (which being which depending on whether the cusp is a local maximum or minimum of the function)? If so, why?


This might be true if you restrict yourself to functions. As I had no idea what was a cusp was I'm basically going off of what I saw here:

http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Cusp.html

It looks like far more fun for cusps on non-functions as Mr F pointed out Wink
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